Whipmaster Passive Skill

[CrazyVanilla]

Bruh, you have to be dumb to think a class that, without any active skills (ex. Sonic Boom), deals up to 2.55x the base damage of a warrior, both classes with the same stats, is the weakest class. At that point, a Whipmaster only needs 47 hits per second (43.6% of its ideal attack speed of 108) to rival a warrior's no-skill DPS for a two-handed weapon and 75 hits per second (69.7% of its ideal attack speed of 108) to do the same against a dual-wielding warrior (again, no skills). Basically, what I'm saying is it's got the best raw damage regardless of attack speed. When the tip hits, it NAILS.

And yes, I personally agree with Cinos that the suggestion is lazy. Sure, you may pull the simplicity card, but in reality, simplicity and how interesting something is should never be linked to one another. If you want to catch eyes/gain support, make an idea interesting like, for example, snakes that latch onto foes and have branches for slowdown and poison mechanics. Trust me, if I didn't put in all the effort to make what I suggest interesting (Whipmaster class, which we can all agree is the most complex class by far; Desert map; Chinese mobs), Robby wouldn't have looked at them at all.

Not sure if you have issues with reading and comprehension, but I clearly stated there is an extreme disconnect between the possible DPS and real DPS because of this specific issue. I would agree that whipmaster is good at lower levels where classes are less reliant on skills, but it becomes unplayable at higher levels, which you have no experience with in any class. If whipmaster was actually as powerful as you say it was, why is there no active high level whipmasters? Why would I switch from "an extremely powerful class" and take a massive loss on selling my gear after a week? I was a basically maxed out whipmaster at nearly level 80, and could not compete with level 50's and 60's while grinding, again, because of this exact problem. Thats not even to mention how impossible it is to land tip hits in pvp. Plus, since you do not have any experience with higher leveled gameplay, I'll inform you that essentially every class relies on their skills for both pvp and grinding, especially warrior who pretty much has rage active 24/7. Comparing a class to warrior without their rage is not at all a realistic comparison, because again, in reality, which appears to be a hard concept to grasp, warriors are nothing without their rage.

When there is a clear problem and a clear solution, you just solve the problem. Why would you not solve the biggest problem with the class? Not everything has to be complex and extravagant. Look at coin & loot thief, crucial mp, money power, and other skills like blind tip, blind hit and fitness, all extremely simple passive skills that attempt to address the weaknesses of their respective classes allowing for more balanced and competitive gameplay. That's not even to mention the simple general skills like Dual Wield Pro, Regen, Two Hander Pro, etc which add immense value to the game. Adding this skill would be no different. It's not that complex skills aren't good or cool, because they definitely can be and adding more complexity would be a good thing IMO, but not every skill HAS to be complex. This doesn't even NEED to be a skill, it can literally just be added as a mechanic of tip-hits, lol.

My point here is not to attack you, its to just show you that you are not always right, and that math, specifically your math, isn't always as accurate as you think it is because it doesn't always account for complications that occur in the real scenario. Whether you want to accept that is up to you, but its true. Math requires inputs, if the inputs do not reflect the reality, neither will the answer. If your trying to grind Stalagmites which are stagnant, then sure the 108 tip hits is very realistic, but go try that on something like a shroom warrior which actually moves and moves quickly, that 108 literally can be cut in half. Go get to level 70+ with a maxed out whip and let me know how you fare grinding compared to your math and other classes, because from someone who has done exactly that I can tell you its way off.

[Jau]

Flash, DID'YA SEE HOW MANY WHIPMASTER PLAYERS ARE IN ELIA?!?!
JUST LOOK AT ECONOMY DATA
YOU WILL UNDERSTAND CUZ THE WHIPMASTER IS THE MOST WEAKER CLASS EVER!!

"lazy idea" I'LL CALL YOUR IDEAS LAZY!!

Now there are 9% Players that Are Whipmaster!

[we_can]

Flash, DID'YA SEE HOW MANY WHIPMASTER PLAYERS ARE IN ELIA?!?!
JUST LOOK AT ECONOMY DATA
YOU WILL UNDERSTAND CUZ THE WHIPMASTER IS THE MOST WEAKER CLASS EVER!!

"lazy idea" I'LL CALL YOUR IDEAS LAZY!!

Now there are 9% Players that Are Whipmaster!

lol nah you post suggestions more often than you've leveled in the game. Flashlight actually puts time and effort into their suggestions. They use math and write like a whole essay about how it would be implemented and would make sense in game. They even make art of their suggestion, whereas you write a few sentences about a poorly thought-out suggestion and expect everyone to agree with you. You literally cannot take any criticism, no matter how nice you can possibly put it. Don't try and sh it on other people if people don't like your suggestion.

[we_can]

Also I would like to add how funny it is you call Flashlights' ideas lazy while you try and come up with suggestions on a class Flashlight suggested. Pure irony. Also you wrote one sentence on this idea idk man. IMO whipmaster does seem a little balanced, and Flashlight's math puts that into perspective. I think people don't really use the class as it is hard to hit the tip consistently, and they find it easier to do things with other classes. If I were to make a passive skill, I think you should have like a trade off (bigger tip hitbox, less damage when hitting with tip/more base damage, smaller tip hitbox). Also I kinda think whipmaster needs a special skill that makes it unique. Whirl is good but I feel it's missing something.

[Flashlight237]

Bruh, you have to be dumb to think a class that, without any active skills (ex. Sonic Boom), deals up to 2.55x the base damage of a warrior, both classes with the same stats, is the weakest class. At that point, a Whipmaster only needs 47 hits per second (43.6% of its ideal attack speed of 108) to rival a warrior's no-skill DPS for a two-handed weapon and 75 hits per second (69.7% of its ideal attack speed of 108) to do the same against a dual-wielding warrior (again, no skills). Basically, what I'm saying is it's got the best raw damage regardless of attack speed. When the tip hits, it NAILS.

And yes, I personally agree with Cinos that the suggestion is lazy. Sure, you may pull the simplicity card, but in reality, simplicity and how interesting something is should never be linked to one another. If you want to catch eyes/gain support, make an idea interesting like, for example, snakes that latch onto foes and have branches for slowdown and poison mechanics. Trust me, if I didn't put in all the effort to make what I suggest interesting (Whipmaster class, which we can all agree is the most complex class by far; Desert map; Chinese mobs), Robby wouldn't have looked at them at all.

Not sure if you have issues with reading and comprehension, but I clearly stated there is an extreme disconnect between the possible DPS and real DPS because of this specific issue. I would agree that whipmaster is good at lower levels where classes are less reliant on skills, but it becomes unplayable at higher levels, which you have no experience with in any class. If whipmaster was actually as powerful as you say it was, why is there no active high level whipmasters? Why would I switch from "an extremely powerful class" and take a massive loss on selling my gear after a week? I was a basically maxed out whipmaster at nearly level 80, and could not compete with level 50's and 60's while grinding, again, because of this exact problem. Thats not even to mention how impossible it is to land tip hits in pvp. Plus, since you do not have any experience with higher leveled gameplay, I'll inform you that essentially every class relies on their skills for both pvp and grinding, especially warrior who pretty much has rage active 24/7. Comparing a class to warrior without their rage is not at all a realistic comparison, because again, in reality, which appears to be a hard concept to grasp, warriors are nothing without their rage.

When there is a clear problem and a clear solution, you just solve the problem. Why would you not solve the biggest problem with the class? Not everything has to be complex and extravagant. Look at coin & loot thief, crucial mp, money power, and other skills like blind tip, blind hit and fitness, all extremely simple passive skills that attempt to address the weaknesses of their respective classes allowing for more balanced and competitive gameplay. That's not even to mention the simple general skills like Dual Wield Pro, Regen, Two Hander Pro, etc which add immense value to the game. Adding this skill would be no different. It's not that complex skills aren't good or cool, because they definitely can be and adding more complexity would be a good thing IMO, but not every skill HAS to be complex. This doesn't even NEED to be a skill, it can literally just be added as a mechanic of tip-hits, lol.

My point here is not to attack you, its to just show you that you are not always right, and that math, specifically your math, isn't always as accurate as you think it is because it doesn't always account for complications that occur in the real scenario. Whether you want to accept that is up to you, but its true. Math requires inputs, if the inputs do not reflect the reality, neither will the answer. If your trying to grind Stalagmites which are stagnant, then sure the 108 tip hits is very realistic, but go try that on something like a shroom warrior which actually moves and moves quickly, that 108 literally can be cut in half. Go get to level 70+ with a maxed out whip and let me know how you fare grinding compared to your math and other classes, because from someone who has done exactly that I can tell you its way off.

Okay okay okay. I understand that you're trying to get me to understand what you're trying to say, but...

1. I'm literally at the border between target-audience-level and high-level, Level 56 (or was it 57?) to be precise, and I just now found myself able to grind the game's current gatekeeper mob: Auroch Beetles. It's a weird mishmash of both being there and not being there. Oxymoron, I know, but get what I'm saying? From my experience as a warrior, which is the class I'm literally using rn (don't expect me to change classes; my choices tend to be set in stone), while yes, I join others in using Rage in battle, I made myself more efficient MP-wise by doing what you don't recommend: using max expertise. Doing such made it a fair bit easier for me specifically to kill mobs like Auroch Beetles without having to rely on Power Smash, especially since more agile mobs like Steel Blocks are, mmm, a tad difficult to time a good Power Smash against. Did I mention that Steel Blocks are currently the 2nd most durable mob in the game?
2. What happened to people playing their own way, which I personally found the Trimps community regularly encouraged as opposed to this community?
3. Who do you think, in the very post that started the Whipmaster class, put in a PVP-exclusive damage boost passive skill for Whipmasters despite knowing that PVP isn't even worth bothering with?

Personal complaints aside, that's the thing. I always feel that you, or at least I, always have to add color to what you're trying to do if you wanna solve any problem. If I don't, it just feels like a pointless effort, get what I'm saying?

And by the way, my math doesn't rely on numbers that are pulled out of nowhere without any sort of testing like you're trying to imply, bro. The numbers I got came from me testing attack speed out, repeatedly pressing C or any of the three skill buttons with a stopwatch by my side through many 10-second tests, and even then I am well aware that these are ideal scenarios. I even made an empty tent into my "Ideal Scenario Room" in order to analyze each and every skill. That was how I got 108 hits/minute from Whipmasters, 120 hits/minute from single-handed warriors and pre-rework mages, 132 hits/minute from archers, and 192 hits/minute from dual-wielding warriors and pre-rework mages. Haven't done anything with post-rework mages yet, however.

[CrazyVanilla]

And by the way, my math doesn't rely on numbers that are pulled out of nowhere without any sort of testing like you're trying to imply, bro. The numbers I got came from me testing attack speed out, repeatedly pressing C or any of the three skill buttons with a stopwatch by my side through many 10-second tests, and even then I am well aware that these are ideal scenarios. I even made an empty tent into my "Ideal Scenario Room" in order to analyze each and every skill. That was how I got 108 hits/minute from Whipmasters, 120 hits/minute from single-handed warriors and pre-rework mages, 132 hits/minute from archers, and 192 hits/minute from dual-wielding warriors and pre-rework mages. Haven't done anything with post-rework mages yet, however.

I am all for playing the game however you want to, but if you're trying to claim that I am incorrect in saying it is not possible to obtain 108 tip hits per minute on most enemies or players because of the fact that they move, you'll need to have some "real-game" testing done to prove otherwise, not just counting the attack speed while swinging at nothing. I am not saying your inputs are pulled out of nowhere (if you sensed that it was accidental), I'm just saying they are not accurate to a "real-game" scenario, making your end result inaccurate as well.

Your math showcases whipmasters can swing 108 times per minute, which is totally different than landing 108 hits per minute, never-mind landing 108 tip hits per minute. There is a difference between the ideal scenario, which should account for a small margin of error, and (in most cases) an impossible scenario, which is what you keep describing here. Like I said, if you are lucky you'll be able to land even half of that attack rate in actual tip hits depending on what you are attacking, even as a skillful player.

Going back to what I said previously,

that math, specifically your math, isn't always as accurate as you think it is because it doesn't always account for complications that occur in the real scenario.

The whipmaster class requires more precision, which you yourself acknowledged and intentionally designed in that way, which I love btw. The problem here is, with more precision required, there are A LOT more variables present in order to create that precision, variables that are NOT present in any of the other classes, and variables that you are not accounting for. Hence why I say you are measuring 108 swings per minute, not 108 hits per minute simply because of the movement variable, which is not present in any other class.

The movement variable is present because of the range and precision required for the tip hits. This variable also exists in a smaller degree for archer and cowboy when attacking at a long range, though both of those classes are able to attack up close for the same damage with increased accuracy to compensate, whipmaster is not able to do that since it attacks at a fixed range in order to land tip hits versus a flexible range for other classes, which is why it's a big issue.

TL;DR - Your inputs are gathered from testing rate of attack without the variable for enemy movement, therefor your results can't be used to measure rate of attack for moving enemies. For a class like the whipmaster, it can (currently without a stun) literally have a different real rate of attack for each individual enemy because the real rate of attack is heavily based on the enemies mechanics and movement.

[cinos]

So this is how not playing a JRPG and coming back months later in the middle of the storyline feels like...

[Darkninja]

So this is how not playing a JRPG and coming back months later in the middle of the storyline feels like...

internet essay moment