Arrow Hoard Nerf + Grenade Buff

[CrazyVanilla]

Going to bump this because Arrow Hoard NEEDS a charge for pvp. Facing an archer in pvp makes the whole "player versus player" concept turn into "avoid extremely long ranged, buffed, and wide spread arrows so you don't get 1 hit". The cooldown helped a bit, but with such a long range and wide spread, it's still extremely OP.

I'd suggest a charge time as suggested here and to counteract that possibly increase the damage of the arrows from 150% to 200%?

You do know it ALREADY has more charge time, right? You're pretty much asking for the same nerf (more like- logical rework honestly) again, which I don't MIND but...to be fair you'd still be trapped by my homing arrows and then get a 200% hoard to the face, and I wonder how many times we can ask for "make it slower but stronger" before turning a shotgun into an ANTI TANK RIFLE!

Also, quite a few levels apart.

It's not just you, it's any archer. I got 1 shot by a level 50 archer with 5k damage output and a max tribal bow, and get 1 shot by quiwi all the time, so it's not a levels thing because both of them are lower leveled than me. And the current charge time makes it slower yes, but still you can just hold b and spam click and it will fire when ready, there is not really a timing aspect to using the skill which should be the case seeing as the massive amount of damage it does. Compare it to warriors power smash, which does A LOT of damage as well, but in order to actually land power smash hits on another player you must be VERY strategic.

[cinos]

Going to bump this because Arrow Hoard NEEDS a charge for pvp. Facing an archer in pvp makes the whole "player versus player" concept turn into "avoid extremely long ranged, buffed, and wide spread arrows so you don't get 1 hit". The cooldown helped a bit, but with such a long range and wide spread, it's still extremely OP.

I'd suggest a charge time as suggested here and to counteract that possibly increase the damage of the arrows from 150% to 200%?

You do know it ALREADY has more charge time, right? You're pretty much asking for the same nerf (more like- logical rework honestly) again, which I don't MIND but...to be fair you'd still be trapped by my homing arrows and then get a 200% hoard to the face, and I wonder how many times we can ask for "make it slower but stronger" before turning a shotgun into an ANTI TANK RIFLE!

Also, quite a few levels apart.

It's not just you, it's any archer. I got 1 shot by a level 50 archer with 5k damage output and a max tribal bow, and get 1 shot by quiwi all the time, so it's not a levels thing because both of them are lower leveled than me. And the current charge time makes it slower yes, but still you can just hold b and spam click and it will fire when ready, there is not really a timing aspect to using the skill which should be the case seeing as the massive amount of damage it does. Compare it to warriors power smash, which does A LOT of damage as well, but in order to actually land power smash hits on another player you must be VERY strategic.

Timing? Really? You're gonna talk about timing and then bring up "spam B the move"? Not like there's anything WRONG with power smash, I'm just saying that the strategy is not that different from arrow hoard, and honestly arrow hoard being stronger is definitely less of an issue when it's as slow as molasses, compared to a move that can combo into itself. Unless you use homing arrows and dodge accordingly, simply holding B and clicking ain't good for shιτ since, GASP, people can dodge it. I say you learn how to keep your distance, it's how you win against archer as the class with the most range, and if you're playing warrior you may aswell use powersmash and just fvck someone's shιτ up that way, not like they can easily one shot someone with 80k defense. Mage? Spawn a cloud and circle around the player, use your breathe or orbs to kill him if you can. Whipmaster? I have no idea, nobody plays as him.

Learn how to dodge, I sure as heck did, even managed to kill -ZERO- a couple times before switching classes too.

[CrazyVanilla]

Timing? Really? You're gonna talk about timing and then bring up "spam B the move"? Not like there's anything WRONG with power smash, I'm just saying that the strategy is not that different from arrow hoard, and honestly arrow hoard being stronger is definitely less of an issue when it's as slow as molasses, compared to a move that can combo into itself. Unless you use homing arrows and dodge accordingly, simply holding B and clicking ain't good for shιτ since, GASP, people can dodge it. I say you learn how to keep your distance, it's how you win against archer as the class with the most range, and if you're playing warrior you may aswell use powersmash and just fvck someone's shιτ up that way, not like they can easily one shot someone with 80k defense. Mage? Spawn a cloud and circle around the player, use your breathe or orbs to kill him if you can. Whipmaster? I have no idea, nobody plays as him.

Learn how to dodge, I sure as heck did, even managed to kill -ZERO- a couple times before switching classes too.

To be clear I have no intention of nerfing Archer to become poop, I have been the class multiple times in the past, and will likely change to it again at some point in the future, and I'm well aware how arrow hoard is important for the class. I also have no intention of saying you are not skillful in pvp, or that I should never die to an archer, because you are, and I should if they are skillful like yourself.

Anyway, allow me to lay this out a bit more. Do you remember when I was recently a warrior and we fought a few times? I was a speed build warrior, with max speed, which is quite a bit faster than an archer. I believe I was able to kill you at least once using power smash, after you killing me several times as I attempted to kill you, but even when I was successful it was not before having to run around in circles dodging your arrow hoards for several minutes until finally you made a mistake and I was able to capture you in a stun lock and kill you. I faced multiple high lvl archers including -ZERO-, where a similar thing happened. It's the ONLY way to kill anyone using power smash in pvp.

So, let's talk about power smash then. Obviously, it does crazy damage, and if exploding smash is upgraded it allows you to get other players into a stun lock which often will result in a kill if you don't run out of MP (which is uses A LOT of btw, I had 300 as warrior and would often run out when smash combo-ing someone). Power smash requires precise timing, since you basically have to be ON TOP of the other player in order to land a hit. Even as a max speed warrior this is extremely difficult for multiple reasons, the main one being power smash has a very small charge up time (the animation), which means the other player can literally move like 3 steps and be out of range, or better yet 1 doge roll. In this instance if you miss, you have to start the juking process ALL over again, which literally could mean another several minutes of just running and dodging attacks. Along with this, specifically with archers, since you have to be so close to them in order to land the hit, they can just turn and hoard you, likely landing all 6 arrows which in most cases will be a 1 hit no matter what, at least very close (obviously is situational dependent).

Why don't we look at ninja slash as well, another fairly high damage skill that also requires precise timing. Ninja slash is a very good skill, but can also be extremely bad if used at the wrong time. Similar to when a mages shield pops, while using ninja slash that player is essentially good as dead to anyone who does not die from their slash. It has a pretty long animation, which prevents them from moving or healing, allowing other players, specifically archers and cowboys who can attack from longer distances and avoid the slash itself, to just inflict insane damage without any risk.

I am not complaining about either of these skills, I actually think they are very balanced the way they are since they do require timing and do have risk involved with using them, but I am using them to compare to arrow hoard, which is not balanced.

What is the consequence of using arrow hoard, a very high damage and long ranged attack, at the wrong time? Nothing. Also, to address the "lean how to dodge" comment, I can dodge arrow hoards very easily, the issue is dodging them while trying to actually fight. If you shoot a hoard in my direction, I have to run away/roll away to doge it, then by the time I have safely dodged it and can attempt to attack back, the cooldown is over and you are ready to shoot another. Yes, cowboy technically does outrange archer by 3 feet, but 90% of cowboys damage is done by poison, which is max 24 at a time. If i'm trying to outrange a hoard, and the archer has even 150 hp, all it takes is for them to dogeroll away once, or move a few steps and they are out of my range, way faster than it will take for me to kill them. Not to mention arrow hoard makes mages forcefield basically pointless since its an easy 1 hit to pop it without even triggering the orbs then they are stuck "catching their breathe" forever and are just dead.

Having a charge up as flash suggested would mean that not every hoard shot all 6 arrows, and if you wanted to shoot all 6 and have a deadly attack, you'd have to actually time it very well, unlike currently. Again my goal is not to nerf archer to poop, but I don't see the point in pvp having archer basically dominate all other classes even if the others are skillful players. Also again, I recognize the 13 level difference between us specifically (which really isn't THAT much considering you have slightly lower outputs because you don't wear a helmet), but as I mentioned I fight quiwi all the time who is lower leveled than I and experience the same thing. As a general rule I don't think 1 hits should be a common occurrence in pretty fairly matched pvp fights from any class, yet it's extremely common for archers to 1 hit in fair fights. (I realize warriors 1 hit often but they are not ranged + many times much slower so they land much fewer hits in general so its kinda needed for their infrequent hits to do a lot of damage or even 1 hit in many cases)